Congress’ anti-Modi politics continues its anti-Tilak/Aurobindo legacy – II
| by Radha Rajan | on 25 Dec 2013 | 29 Comments |
Aurobindo’s passive resistance was weapon, Gandhi’s passive resistance was suicide: One must hand it to Gandhi. If he was anything from 1909 when he penned Hind Swaraj until his death in 1948, he was consistent in his fantasies, fetishes and political delusions. He wanted both Hindus and Muslims to subsume their Hindu and Muslim identity in ‘Indian’ identity, both in 1922 at the time of the Moplah jihad and in 1946 post Direct Action Day when he wanted Muslims and Hindus to find an “Indian” answer to Islamic jihad and Muslim secessionism rearing its head menacingly from the 1930s decade. And while Hindus always obliged, star-struck by Gandhi’s Mahatmahood, Muslims sensibly ignored him and perfected their jihadi weapon and went relentlessly towards achieving their Islamic objective of vivisecting the Hindu nation.
Hindus must find out the causes of Moplah fanaticism. They will find that they are not without blame. They have hitherto not cared for the Moplah. They have either treated him as a serf or dreaded him. They have not treated him as a friend and neighbor, to be reformed and respected. It is no use now becoming angry with the Moplahs or the Mussalmans in general.
I see nothing impossible in Hindus, as Indians trying to wean the Moplahs, as Indians, from their error. I see nothing impossible in asking the Hindus to develop courage and strength to die before accepting forced conversion. I was delighted to be told that there were Hindus who did prefer the Moplah hatchet to forced conversion. If these have died without anger or malice, they have died as truest Hindus because they were truest among Indians and men. (Moplah Massacre in Young India, 26-1-1922, CWMG vol. 26, pp 24-27).
This was Gandhi’s unchanging prescription for three decades for Hindus when faced by jihad – Die; and don’t die with anger or malice, die with a smile. Twenty-five years later the Mahatma would give the same advice to Hindu women in 1946-47 when Bengal was burning in jihadi flames – suffocate yourself or commit suicide by biting your tongue.
Gandhiji advised the women in East Bengal to commit suicide by poison or some other means to avoid dishonour. Yesterday he told the women to suffocate themselves or to bite their tongues to end their lives. (Speech at Prayer Meeting, New Delhi, October 18, 1946. CWMG Vol. 92, page 355; Eclipse of the Hindu Nation, page 433 footnote 12)
Of course what is left unsaid is Gandhi advised Hindu women to commit suicide.
Gandhi concluded his answer with the outrageous remark that rather than resist the Muslim League by force, “I would be ruled by them”. But this was not about Gandhi. This was about the Hindu nation and Hindu territory. Gandhi arrogated to himself the right to speak for all Hindus in the nation, both inside and outside the INC when he said that he would rather be ruled by Muslims than seek British help. But seeking British help was not the only way; Hindus could also have picked up arms against the Muslims to defend their people and their territory. But the Mahatma closed the doors decisively against armed Hindu resistance. Like Aurobindo wrote in 1907, Gandhi unmanned not only the Hindus and killed all divinity in them he also killed the divinity within the motherland.
Gandhi spoke not just for the spineless Hindus in the INC and clueless Hindus outside the INC who believed he was leading some kind of freedom movement and therefore came to the streets in the hundreds and thousands to suffer death or imprisonment, but also promised to hand over all Hindu kingdoms to the Muslim League if the Muslim League co-operated with the Congress to evict the British from Indian soil! But this would be in 1942. As pointed out earlier, Gandhi was nothing if not consistent in his follies, fantasies and fetishes.
Is the Englishman bad because he is an Englishman? Is it that everyone with an Indian skin is good? If that is so we can claim no rights in South Africa, nor should there be any angry protest against oppression by Indian Princes. India can gain nothing from the rule of murderers – no matter whether they are black or white. (London after July 16, 1909, Gandhi on Dhingra’s assassination of Sir Curzon Wyllie, CWMG Vol. 9, pp 428-29)
Among the several unasked questions about Gandhi’s freedom movement and among issues which have been studiously ignored by sarkari historians are -
· Why did Gandhi’s INC accept the Cabinet Mission proposals as basis for transfer of power?
· Why did the Constituent Assembly accept the Government of India Act 1935 as basis for the Indian Constitution ignoring the Sapru Committee report which not only dealt with all issues dealt with by the Cabinet Mission but also presented an all-Indian blue print for the Indian Constitution?
· Why did Gandhi refuse to even consider the Sapru Committee report?
· Why did he welcome the Cabinet Mission proposals with indecent haste, within 48 hours after the Mission gave it to Gandhi?
· And why did Gandhi waste the INC’s time over the next 3 months debating, discussing, negating and rejecting the proposals clause by clause until the Cabinet Mission left India in frustration leaving behind an inflamed Jinnah and Muslim league who promptly declared Direct Action Day?
Long years ago when Gen. Smuts, Lord Hardinge and Lord Ampthill plotted with Gopalkrishna Gokhale and other empire loyalists to maneuver Gandhi into the INC after forcibly evicting Tilak, Savarkar and Aurobindo from the political arena, this is exactly what they hoped Gandhi would do!
Aurobindo on the other hand defined and described passive resistance with razor-sharp intelligence, with penetrating understanding of politics.
Justice and righteousness are the atmosphere of political morality; but the justice and righteousness of a fighter, not of the priest. Aggression is unjust only when unprovoked; violence unrighteous when used wantonly for unrighteous ends. It is barren philosophy which applies a mechanical rule to all actions, or takes a word and tries to fit all human life into it.
There is a limit however to passive resistance. So long as the action of the executive is peaceful and within the rules of the fight, that passive resister scrupulously maintains his attitude of passivity, but he is not bound to do so a moment beyond.
To submit to illegal or violent methods of coercion, to accept outrage and hooliganism as part of the legal procedure of the country, is to be guilty of cowardice, and by dwarfing national manhood, to sin against the divinity within ourselves and the divinity in our motherland.
The new politics therefore while it favors passive resistance does not include meek submission to illegal outrage under that term; it has no intent of overstressing passivity at the expense of resistance.
Passive resistance cannot build up a strong and great nation, unless it is masculine, bold and ardent in its spirit and ready at any moment and at the slightest notice to supplement itself with active resistance. (Aurobindo, The Doctrine of Passive Resistance, Bande Mataram, written between April 11 and April 23, 1907
Gandhi’s bizarre interpretation of Ramrajya and the un-Hindu exposition of the most important epics sacred to Hindus created the perfect political comfort zone for anti-Hindu and non-Hindu political mercenaries from where they could implement their politics of minority-ism. Gandhi was sent to South Africa so that away from the immediate scrutiny of Hindus within the country he could be conditioned and groomed by sundry Christian missionaries and then brought back to lead the INC. Gandhi’s Abrahamic approach to Hinduism remained unchanged till his death:
It was ignorance to say that he coupled Rama, a mere man, with God. His Rama was before, is present now and would be for all time. He was Unborn and Uncreated. Therefore let them tolerate and respect the different faiths. He was himself an iconoclast but he had regard for the so-called idolators. Those who worshipped idols also worshipped the same God who was everywhere, even in a clod of earth, even in a nail that was pared off. (CWMG Vol. 93 page 365)
There are two aspects of Hinduism. There is on the one hand, the historical Hinduism with its untouchability, superstitious worship of sticks and stones, animal sacrifice and so on. On the other, we have the Hinduism of the Gita, the Upanishads, and Patanjali’s Yogasutra which is the acme of ahimsa and oneness of all Creation, pure worship of one immanent, formless, imperishable God. (CWMG Vol. 93, page 43 and Radha Rajan, Eclipse of the Hindu Nation, page 461, footnote 52)
For Gandhi all that was historical about Hinduism was despicable and had to be rejected while what according to him was best was his own monotheist and Abrahamic perspective of our dharma. The country is plagued by this anti-Hindu legacy because Gandhi did not keep his views and practices strictly in the private domain; he insisted on thrusting his views on everyone who came into contact with him. His views included his un-Hindu views on our history, his anti-Hindu views on Hindu religious rituals and his warped antipathy towards our temples.
The most destructive and lasting impact that Gandhi had on the Hindu nation was when he handpicked Nehru as the first Prime Minister of independent India, and when he and Nehru handpicked all Congress representatives from the Provinces to the Constituent Assembly. It was because the Constituent Assembly was packed with Gandhi-Nehru loyalists that we have an essentially anti-Hindu constitution weighted proactively on the side of religious minorities and against articles of faith of the majority Hindu people.
Gandhi and the temple inside Benares Hindu University
Pandit Madan Mohan Malaviya had left instructions in his last will and testament for his personal secretary VA Sundaram to build a grand temple inside the BHU. Pandit Malaviya had already asked JK Birla to contribute Rs. 25 lakhs for the purpose and left instructions to Sundaram to approach Hindu rulers to contribute more if needed. Pandit Malaviya wanted a grand marble temple for Bhagwan Shiva. But Gandhi being Gandhi did not suffer even a twinge of conscience in asking Sundaram not to heed Malaviya’s specific instructions but to build the temple according to Gandhi’s Abrahamic views on Hinduism.
Bhai Jugal Kishore,
Baba Raghavdas gave me a full account of the passing away of Malaviyaji. He also mentioned your pledge. You should therefore certainly set apart Rs. 25 lakhs for the temple. However I am afraid it will not be conducive to the progress of Hinduism if Malaviyaji’s concept of the temple complex is translated literally. If the spirit of his concept is followed, it would raise Hinduism to greater heights. Today Hinduism is being compared with other religions. Baba Raghavdas will tell you the rest. (Letter to Jugal Kishore Birla, December 7, 1946, CWMG Vol. 93, page 116)
I have already written to Sheth JK Birla and sent the note by hand through Baba Raghavdas. You will probably see that letter and you will see too that I have spoken about you to him. In my opinion your course is clear. If you can breathe the soul of Hinduism into the Viswa Vidyalaya, you should stay, not otherwise.
The whole of the sum will not be spent on stone and mortar. Some marble is necessary. It should be a unique thing. It ought not to contain any idol. An idol is not a necessity of Hindu belief or a Hindu temple. (Letter to VA Sundaram, December 11, 1946, CWMG Vol. 93, pp 128-29)
Indian polity’s response to demolition of the Babri Masjid and reclaiming Ramjanmabhumi and protection of Ram Setu, with arguments based precisely on the question of historicity of Srirama and the Ram Setu, the issue of legislating against slaughter of cow and its progeny or against religious conversion, as may be seen is a direct legacy of Gandhi’s never-spoken-about anti-Hindu mindset. Clearly for Gandhi chanting Ramanama was the same as Sonia Gandhi being ‘Indian’ – mere external trappings to find acceptance among Hindus - the majority populace of Bharatavarsha.
Gandhi’s views on Hindu religious ritual the ‘havan’ or yagnya
Gandhi arrogated to himself the right to instruct a sanyasi to discard his sanyasi robes if he was unable to be a sanyasi of Gandhi’s fantasies.
Bhai Uddhav, on the death of your brother you performed only the yarn-sacrifice and no religious rites. I liked it very much. It will bring great benefit if all do so. (Letter to Udhav, Sodepur, December 8, 1945, CWMG vol. 89, page 14)
Bhai Bhagwadacharya,
I have your letter after many days. I must admit that I don’t like it. Firstly why should you involve yourself in a ritual sacrifice which is more or less a fraud? I can understand those who are ignorant of the true nature of dharma or are downright hypocrites busying themselves with it, but why a man like you should concern himself with it is something beyond my comprehension, especially because I don’t want to look upon you as a hypocrite and because I am not prepared to believe you are so sunk in abysmal ignorance.
And if there was a sacrifice, wherefore all then discrimination? Those who do not want to come may not; those who want to may come. Hence in no way can my heart accept either your act or your justification of it.
I would wish you to devote yourself single-heartedly to what is straight forward and truthful, rather than indulge in mere casuistry. I am strongly opposed to sacrifice as it is currently interpreted. I consider it a sin to throw ghee into the fire in our age. Sacrifice really meant an act of service.
I had therefore hoped that you would follow only that which is truthful even by giving up your position as a swami. (Letter to Bhagwadacharya, Delhi April 24, 1946, CWMG Vol. 90, page 307, Eclipse of the Hindu Nation, pp 456-57)
As proof of how consistent Gandhi was in his core anti-Hindu attitudes, Gandhi disparages in 1916, Hindu custom of holding upanyasas and pravachans as traditional method of bringing our puranas and itihasascloser to all people.
If merely listening to speeches could accomplish anything or cure our ailments, why, they arrange reading from the Bhagavat at so many places and these draw large audiences, but we shall find on several of these occasions that quite a few in the audience are dozing. If we could get everything by submitting to speeches, we need do nothing else. Only let the Brahmins go on with their readings from holy books and Puranas and our salvation would be assured. (Speech At Arya Samaj Annual Celebrations, Surat January 2, 1916, CWMG Vol. 15, page 125)
And the same Gandhi many years later would pronounce that chanting Ramanama was the best cure for Malaria.
Gandhi upbraided a Hindu sanyasi for performing a yagnya, and said he considered “throwing ghee into the fire” a sin, but the Mahatma raised his sinful, un-Hindu and unethical experiments with several unclothed women, including Dr. Sushila Nayyar, Manu Gandhi, Amtussalam and Kanchan Shah to the exalted status of ayagnya.
Without going into the sordid details of Gandhi’s experiments with women just enough is being cited to present the gross distortion of Gandhi’s views on what, in the Mahatma’s view constituted a Hindu ‘yagnya’.
Chi. Ghanshyamdas, I sent you a letter through Sushila. But I have been upset somewhat by Sardar’s letter. Devdas’s letter is still ringing in my years.
I have great faith in Sardar’s judgment. I have faith in Devdas’s judgment too but then, though grown-up, in my eyes he is still a child. This cannot be said of Sardar.
A satyagrahi may end up as a duragrahi if he comes to regard untruth as truth; that being the only distinction between the two. I believe that is not the case with me; but that means little, for after all I am not God. I can commit mistakes; I have committed mistakes; this may prove to be my biggest at the fag end of my life. If that be so, all my well-wishers can open my eyes if they oppose me. If they do not I shall go from here even as I am. Whatever I am doing here is a part of my yagnya. There is nothing I do knowingly which is not part and parcel of that yagnya. (Excerpts from Letter to GD Birla, February 15, 1947, CWMG Vol. 93, page 406, Eclipse of the Hindu Nation, page 375, footnote 51)
This is a very personal letter but not private. Manu Gandhi my grand-daughter as we consider blood relations, shares the bed with me, strictly as my very blood, not to give animal satisfaction but as part of what may be my last yagnya. This has cost me dearest associates: Vallabhbhai, Kishorelal, probably CR and others. This includes Devdas. I have lost caste with them. (Excerpt from Letter to JB Kriplani, February 24, 1947, CWMG Vol. 94, page 34)
(To be continued…)
User CommentsPost a Comment
Wonderful analysis the of de Hinduisation of the Indian polity and society by the baptised Hindu politicians ,unfortunately they are now thriving on the state patronage.Ms.Radha Rajan is doing a great national service by revealing the overt and covert agenda of these so called national leaders who have eaten the soul of the Hindu nation.
MAHESH KAUL
December 25, 2013
December 25, 2013
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Wonderful analysis of the de Hinduisation of the Indian polity and society by the baptised Hindu politicians ,unfortunately they are now thriving on the state patronage.Ms.Radha Rajan is doing a great national service by revealing the overt and covert agenda of these so called national leaders who have eaten the soul of the Hindu nation.
MAHESH KAUL
December 25, 2013
December 25, 2013
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Radha Rajan never disappoints. Excellent followup to part-I. Must read for clueless, deracinated desis in India and the external diaspora who still tom tom Gandhi as the sole entity representing the ethos of India, past and present!
Rahul Banerji
December 25, 2013
December 25, 2013
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Eye-opening & mind-blowing analysis .This pieces should be translated in all Indian languages
Madhusudan Thakkar
December 25, 2013
December 25, 2013
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Radha Ji,
You are ONE of the few bold writers to tear this Gandhi apart, with your sharp arguments.. this moron has done all the damage and gone long back.. While its essential to expose him, there is a large vacuum on how we want a "Hindu" nation to be formed of..
So i request you to write a positive article on how you would like a "Future" Hindu Nation to be like.. that would be a Positive Outlook for the depressed/oppressed minds .. this would kickstart a Positive debate on our issues (rather than locked up in the negative critism of the past)..
You are ONE of the few bold writers to tear this Gandhi apart, with your sharp arguments.. this moron has done all the damage and gone long back.. While its essential to expose him, there is a large vacuum on how we want a "Hindu" nation to be formed of..
So i request you to write a positive article on how you would like a "Future" Hindu Nation to be like.. that would be a Positive Outlook for the depressed/oppressed minds .. this would kickstart a Positive debate on our issues (rather than locked up in the negative critism of the past)..
senthil
December 25, 2013
December 25, 2013
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Dear @Senthil,
While your question is to Smt RR, may point out to you a good start would be Abhas Chatterjee's "The Concept of Hindu Nation"? The book is available at http://www.scribd.com/doc/7223027/The-Concept-of-a-Hindu-Nation
Besides, the hhr article and CRI series I pointed out earlier attempt some clarity.
While your question is to Smt RR, may point out to you a good start would be Abhas Chatterjee's "The Concept of Hindu Nation"? The book is available at http://www.scribd.com/doc/7223027/The-Concept-of-a-Hindu-Nation
Besides, the hhr article and CRI series I pointed out earlier attempt some clarity.
Dwadasaksha
December 25, 2013
December 25, 2013
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@dwadasaksha,
the books you referred are all based on aritificial concepts of "One Nation One Language and One Dharma".. the concept of nation is based on religious & hindutva ideology.. I totally reject that perspective and view..
I want to know how Radha Rajan ji wants a Hindu nation to be.. that would kickstart a positive debate..
I request her to write a separate article on it..
Instead of living in a vague hope that Narendra Modi will revive the Hindu Nation, lets get in to the details ourselves on how a nation should be.. That will set a indigenous framework of thought process, free from western & capitalistic ideology (of Nationhood & statehood)..
Last time when NDA captured the power, it did not have any idea of ruling.. NOR the Hindu organisations have any framework.. NOR the Swadhesji Jagran Manch..
Everyone of them are having Vague wishes and NOT concrete action plan.. as a result, the same colonial economy & political structure was continued, and worse, the BJP expanded the colonial capitalistic economy, destroying whatever remained in the traditional bharath (due to incompetence of congress in running the beurocratic machinery)..
In my strong opinion, Modi will be delivering a FINAL deathblow to all our traditions..
That's why i am insisting on positive discussion of the "Hindu" rashtra that everyone dreams of.. lets spell it out in detail..
the books you referred are all based on aritificial concepts of "One Nation One Language and One Dharma".. the concept of nation is based on religious & hindutva ideology.. I totally reject that perspective and view..
I want to know how Radha Rajan ji wants a Hindu nation to be.. that would kickstart a positive debate..
I request her to write a separate article on it..
Instead of living in a vague hope that Narendra Modi will revive the Hindu Nation, lets get in to the details ourselves on how a nation should be.. That will set a indigenous framework of thought process, free from western & capitalistic ideology (of Nationhood & statehood)..
Last time when NDA captured the power, it did not have any idea of ruling.. NOR the Hindu organisations have any framework.. NOR the Swadhesji Jagran Manch..
Everyone of them are having Vague wishes and NOT concrete action plan.. as a result, the same colonial economy & political structure was continued, and worse, the BJP expanded the colonial capitalistic economy, destroying whatever remained in the traditional bharath (due to incompetence of congress in running the beurocratic machinery)..
In my strong opinion, Modi will be delivering a FINAL deathblow to all our traditions..
That's why i am insisting on positive discussion of the "Hindu" rashtra that everyone dreams of.. lets spell it out in detail..
senthil
December 25, 2013
December 25, 2013
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Senthilji take any ordinary Hindu of any jaathi and ask him/her what are the fundamental identities. They will say in this order - gothram, jaathi and subsect, village (even if they live in mega cities). The village, kula deivam, village temple, gothram - these are the absolutely core identities which make up an individual. Language is important too biut it will be incidental to jaathi and subsect. Whatever has angered you Senthilji, it is the loss of autonomy of these identities and their collective and a large measure of eroding place in our city-lives. One good way to begin would be to restore those identites which we are losing because of our lack of commitment and responsibility to these identies; then restore autonomy to the extent possible now and to imcrease the autonomy by strengtheneing the institutions which protected this autonomy. Restoring the importance and autonomy of these basic identities will not interfere or negatively impact what I cann the Hindu identity or the identity of the rashtra. Pl senthilji these are issues which need to be discussed in very great detail and depth. We cannot engage in email discussions. But notmonly am I sensitive to your concerns but I am also very concerned about your attention to the micro without heed to the macro. the macro is not the sum total of the micro identity.
Radha Rajan
December 25, 2013
December 25, 2013
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@Senthil,
"the books you referred are all based on aritificial concepts of "One Nation One Language and One Dharma".. the concept of nation is based on religious & hindutva ideology.. I totally reject that perspective and view.. "
How? To accept or reject, one needs clarity. So far you are repeatedly mixing up - in spite of pointing out where the misreading is.
Of course if RR explains the concept it would be another welcome attempt.
The whole deal of seeing BJP or RSS outside the framework of existing constitution and social situation is naive to say the least.
"Everyone of them are having Vague wishes and NOT concrete action plan"
You are not seeing the natural gap between prevalent public discourse, political statement within the purview of such discourse and Hindutva articulation. What is a manifesto for current situation and what is the long term goal is something one needs to clearly distinguish.
"the books you referred are all based on aritificial concepts of "One Nation One Language and One Dharma".. the concept of nation is based on religious & hindutva ideology.. I totally reject that perspective and view.. "
How? To accept or reject, one needs clarity. So far you are repeatedly mixing up - in spite of pointing out where the misreading is.
Of course if RR explains the concept it would be another welcome attempt.
The whole deal of seeing BJP or RSS outside the framework of existing constitution and social situation is naive to say the least.
"Everyone of them are having Vague wishes and NOT concrete action plan"
You are not seeing the natural gap between prevalent public discourse, political statement within the purview of such discourse and Hindutva articulation. What is a manifesto for current situation and what is the long term goal is something one needs to clearly distinguish.
Dwadasaksha
December 25, 2013
December 25, 2013
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@radharajan ji,
/** Pl senthilji these are issues which need to be discussed in very great detail and depth. We cannot engage in email discussions.
**/
There is no such detailed discussion happening anywhere.. while you want Villages, kula, gothra to be revived, so many other Hindu Intellectuals want this to be destroyed to facilitate their version of Strong Hindu rashtra..
/** But notmonly am I sensitive to your concerns but I am also very concerned about your attention to the micro without heed to the macro. the macro is not the sum total of the micro identity.
**/
I do not deny the Macro Identity ji.. i am only saying that the identity "Hinduism" has been largely hijacked and everyone is creating their own definition... it does not represent the macro identity as it is and facilitate more of abuse rather than strengthening.. i am calling for using our original native identities, which will be the starting point of our dharmic revival.. (for eg, i am comfortable in calling you a Vaishnavite than a Hindu )
/** Pl senthilji these are issues which need to be discussed in very great detail and depth. We cannot engage in email discussions.
**/
There is no such detailed discussion happening anywhere.. while you want Villages, kula, gothra to be revived, so many other Hindu Intellectuals want this to be destroyed to facilitate their version of Strong Hindu rashtra..
/** But notmonly am I sensitive to your concerns but I am also very concerned about your attention to the micro without heed to the macro. the macro is not the sum total of the micro identity.
**/
I do not deny the Macro Identity ji.. i am only saying that the identity "Hinduism" has been largely hijacked and everyone is creating their own definition... it does not represent the macro identity as it is and facilitate more of abuse rather than strengthening.. i am calling for using our original native identities, which will be the starting point of our dharmic revival.. (for eg, i am comfortable in calling you a Vaishnavite than a Hindu )
senthil
December 25, 2013
December 25, 2013
Report Abuse
@dwadaskha,
/** How? To accept or reject, one needs clarity. So far you are repeatedly mixing up - in spite of pointing out where the misreading is
**/
I have explained my stance in detail in the comment section of previous article.. our nationhood is to be defined in terms of Ethnic Identity (bharatha varsham & its dhesams) and NOT in terms of Religious Identity or Ideological Framework.. You are NOT accepting this point..
/** The whole deal of seeing BJP or RSS outside the framework of existing constitution and social situation is naive to say the least.
**/
I dont accept this constitution at first place.. this constitution is NOT properly ratified and NOT written by legitimate persons.. (Only British Bootlickers, wrote this constitution).. its an imposed one..
The current Indian Government machinery does not represent any of our civilizational aspects.. the democracy, judiciary, the police and nothing represent our society.. they are still as much as colonial they were in british..
to submit ourselves to this constitution and then cry for a Hindu Rashtra is illogical and ridiculous..
/** What is a manifesto for current situation and what is the long term goal is something one needs to clearly distinguish.
**/
I have spoken to many people.. NO One is having any idea of long term goal.. there is no vision and no strategy.. Just ask an RSS person and see what he answers..
/** How? To accept or reject, one needs clarity. So far you are repeatedly mixing up - in spite of pointing out where the misreading is
**/
I have explained my stance in detail in the comment section of previous article.. our nationhood is to be defined in terms of Ethnic Identity (bharatha varsham & its dhesams) and NOT in terms of Religious Identity or Ideological Framework.. You are NOT accepting this point..
/** The whole deal of seeing BJP or RSS outside the framework of existing constitution and social situation is naive to say the least.
**/
I dont accept this constitution at first place.. this constitution is NOT properly ratified and NOT written by legitimate persons.. (Only British Bootlickers, wrote this constitution).. its an imposed one..
The current Indian Government machinery does not represent any of our civilizational aspects.. the democracy, judiciary, the police and nothing represent our society.. they are still as much as colonial they were in british..
to submit ourselves to this constitution and then cry for a Hindu Rashtra is illogical and ridiculous..
/** What is a manifesto for current situation and what is the long term goal is something one needs to clearly distinguish.
**/
I have spoken to many people.. NO One is having any idea of long term goal.. there is no vision and no strategy.. Just ask an RSS person and see what he answers..
senthil
December 25, 2013
December 25, 2013
Report Abuse
@Senthil,
"I our nationhood is to be defined in terms of Ethnic Identity (bharatha varsham & its dhesams) and NOT in terms of Religious Identity or Ideological Framework.. You are NOT accepting this point."
Desa-Varsha-Rashtra is an old and evolved concept. There is no need to reinvent it. Nowhere did I say that nationhood should be defined on monolithic religious or ideological entity. Nor does any Hindutva articulation say so. On the contrary, to read Hinduism as a monolithic religious connotation is a notion foisted in spite of Hindutva ideologues repeatedly negating such superimposition. On the other hand, Hinduism as a religious identity (a neo-Hindu phenomenon) needs to be distinguished from the spiritual substratum underlying the very concept of rashtra - the latter being very much a Hindutva position.
"I dont accept this constitution at first place"
I did not ask you to accept it forever either :) That is the law of the land today - and if you are to change it to be fair to the native culture, and to make it a responsible constitution whose goal is to protect the native society and culture, the prerequisite is the emergence of leadership from native patriotic movements. That is where Hindutva folks come from.
"I have spoken to many people.. NO One is having any idea of long term goal.. there is no vision and no strategy.. Just ask an RSS person and see what he answers.."
Depends what strata the person belongs to, within a movement. A majority of ground level activists have very little understanding of the traditions or clarity about a proper Hindutva articulation itself. IF you talk to someone involved in giving direction to the movements, say Parameswaran ji or Sri Ashow Chowgle about long term ideas of the movements, you will get a different impression. At least, this much I can attest from my experience though the persons I talked to are from a different place.
"I our nationhood is to be defined in terms of Ethnic Identity (bharatha varsham & its dhesams) and NOT in terms of Religious Identity or Ideological Framework.. You are NOT accepting this point."
Desa-Varsha-Rashtra is an old and evolved concept. There is no need to reinvent it. Nowhere did I say that nationhood should be defined on monolithic religious or ideological entity. Nor does any Hindutva articulation say so. On the contrary, to read Hinduism as a monolithic religious connotation is a notion foisted in spite of Hindutva ideologues repeatedly negating such superimposition. On the other hand, Hinduism as a religious identity (a neo-Hindu phenomenon) needs to be distinguished from the spiritual substratum underlying the very concept of rashtra - the latter being very much a Hindutva position.
"I dont accept this constitution at first place"
I did not ask you to accept it forever either :) That is the law of the land today - and if you are to change it to be fair to the native culture, and to make it a responsible constitution whose goal is to protect the native society and culture, the prerequisite is the emergence of leadership from native patriotic movements. That is where Hindutva folks come from.
"I have spoken to many people.. NO One is having any idea of long term goal.. there is no vision and no strategy.. Just ask an RSS person and see what he answers.."
Depends what strata the person belongs to, within a movement. A majority of ground level activists have very little understanding of the traditions or clarity about a proper Hindutva articulation itself. IF you talk to someone involved in giving direction to the movements, say Parameswaran ji or Sri Ashow Chowgle about long term ideas of the movements, you will get a different impression. At least, this much I can attest from my experience though the persons I talked to are from a different place.
Dwadasaksha
December 25, 2013
December 25, 2013
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/** Desa-Varsha-Rashtra is an old and evolved concept. There is no need to reinvent it. **/
There is no need to re-invent it.. but there is a need to understand it.. 99% of the current indians (& the hindus) are totally ignorant of exsitence of this dhesha & varsha concept.. pls show me any hindu intelletual who had written articles about it at any time in the past?
/** I did not ask you to accept it forever either :) That is the law of the land today - and if you are to change it to be fair to the native culture, and to make it a responsible constitution whose goal is to protect the native society and culture, the prerequisite is the emergence of leadership from native patriotic movements. That is where Hindutva folks come from.
**/
The law of the land today is the same Colonial laws which britishers enacted.. If you say the current law can be accepted, then why NOT accept the brtishers itself?
you are living in a delusion.. as though hindutva folks have any leadership capabilities.. Modi is an exception and he is made/moulded as leader NOT by rss but by the capitalistic forces..
Pls show me any other leader apart from Modi?
Leadership cannot emerge from an organisation of DUMB & Ignorant ones.. leadership emerges from a strong society..
If you really want a strong leadership, why NOT rely on the former kshatriyas? why ONLY hindutva ?
When you meekly submit it to the current colonial constitution, how can you ever think of alternative?
/** Depends what strata the person belongs to, within a movement. A majority of ground level activists have very little understanding of the traditions or clarity about a proper Hindutva articulation itself.
**/
This explains everything.. when ground level activists have little understanding, it shows the nature of the organisation in keeping its cadres ignorant..
Secondly, why are you expecting everyone to be slave to the ideology? This is the core problem that we have..
Instead of Organisation striving to understand the diverse regional cultures and developing regional leadership, the Hindutva is expecting everyone to believe in the Hindutva ideology, and this is termed as Unity..
they are attempting to establish unity by imposing Common belief system across the region, rather than integrating people based on history & culture.. This is purely abrahamic model..
I had posed this question to RR ji and many others..
Is ideology important or Unity Important? If Unity is important, we should NOT be having any issue in throwing away this Hindutva ideology which has utterly failed so far..
There is no need to re-invent it.. but there is a need to understand it.. 99% of the current indians (& the hindus) are totally ignorant of exsitence of this dhesha & varsha concept.. pls show me any hindu intelletual who had written articles about it at any time in the past?
/** I did not ask you to accept it forever either :) That is the law of the land today - and if you are to change it to be fair to the native culture, and to make it a responsible constitution whose goal is to protect the native society and culture, the prerequisite is the emergence of leadership from native patriotic movements. That is where Hindutva folks come from.
**/
The law of the land today is the same Colonial laws which britishers enacted.. If you say the current law can be accepted, then why NOT accept the brtishers itself?
you are living in a delusion.. as though hindutva folks have any leadership capabilities.. Modi is an exception and he is made/moulded as leader NOT by rss but by the capitalistic forces..
Pls show me any other leader apart from Modi?
Leadership cannot emerge from an organisation of DUMB & Ignorant ones.. leadership emerges from a strong society..
If you really want a strong leadership, why NOT rely on the former kshatriyas? why ONLY hindutva ?
When you meekly submit it to the current colonial constitution, how can you ever think of alternative?
/** Depends what strata the person belongs to, within a movement. A majority of ground level activists have very little understanding of the traditions or clarity about a proper Hindutva articulation itself.
**/
This explains everything.. when ground level activists have little understanding, it shows the nature of the organisation in keeping its cadres ignorant..
Secondly, why are you expecting everyone to be slave to the ideology? This is the core problem that we have..
Instead of Organisation striving to understand the diverse regional cultures and developing regional leadership, the Hindutva is expecting everyone to believe in the Hindutva ideology, and this is termed as Unity..
they are attempting to establish unity by imposing Common belief system across the region, rather than integrating people based on history & culture.. This is purely abrahamic model..
I had posed this question to RR ji and many others..
Is ideology important or Unity Important? If Unity is important, we should NOT be having any issue in throwing away this Hindutva ideology which has utterly failed so far..
senthil
December 25, 2013
December 25, 2013
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@Senthil,
"pls show me any hindu intelletual who had written articles about it at any time in the past?"
Several. More than five decades ago I came across a better articulation of these concepts than I find today. And that articulation bases itself on the works of a previous generation. Today at least, at whatever level of dilution things are being debated at a more public level. You are failing to relate the requirement of the hour with the prevalent level of discourse. Reason? The amount of respectability or legitimacy attached to a traditional presentation in the public discourse. When people keep stressing the need for educating people, this is the reason.
"The law of the land today is the same Colonial laws which britishers enacted.. If you say the current law can be accepted, then why NOT accept the brtishers itself?"
You didn't get my point - a law that exists, applies as it is. The discourse of accepting or rejecting can only happen when you have someone in the position who can change it.
"Leadership cannot emerge from an organisation of DUMB & Ignorant ones.. leadership emerges from a strong society..If you really want a strong leadership, why NOT rely on the former kshatriyas? why ONLY hindutva ?"
The very articulation of Hindutva is the backdrop of elimination of leadership of this society, isn't it? The brahma-kshatra that kept generating the kshatriyas learned, rooted in tradition, committed to society, with art of governance and knowledge of law is invalidated, is that not the reason why this entire movement is trying to cater to the need in spite of not being trained? If knowledge is lacking, if training is lacking, if leadership and governance art is lacking, that is precisely the problem that is being addressed. And that is not going to be filled in by magic with two or three generations of some movements. These movements only bring in the awareness about the needs of the hour. Replacement of centuries-long kshatra vocations is at least that long a process. Please match expectation with reality and then extrapolate things.
"This explains everything.. when ground level activists have little understanding, it shows the nature of the organisation in keeping its cadres ignorant.. "
That conclusion is wrong - the organizations simply lack the logistics to educate hundreds of thousands of cadre. Both for the crisis mode in which they are working and for the scarcity of time learned men can invest in the society - in or outside the organizations. Nevertheless, that is the need and that is the problem that if affecting organizations as well as society in general.
"Secondly, why are you expecting everyone to be slave to the ideology? This is the core problem that we have.."
Sorry, are you mentioning this word ideology so many times or me?
Besides, you need to differentiate between the institutions of nation and state (rashtra and rajya). Diversity, religions, social fabric etc are all part of nation. The leadership problem Hindutva is trying to grapple with is essentially a problem with the state, and the problem space there is not diversity or ground level freedom but commonality, convergence etc. Which is why I keep saying don't mix up things. This is NOT the domain of religion or jati.
"pls show me any hindu intelletual who had written articles about it at any time in the past?"
Several. More than five decades ago I came across a better articulation of these concepts than I find today. And that articulation bases itself on the works of a previous generation. Today at least, at whatever level of dilution things are being debated at a more public level. You are failing to relate the requirement of the hour with the prevalent level of discourse. Reason? The amount of respectability or legitimacy attached to a traditional presentation in the public discourse. When people keep stressing the need for educating people, this is the reason.
"The law of the land today is the same Colonial laws which britishers enacted.. If you say the current law can be accepted, then why NOT accept the brtishers itself?"
You didn't get my point - a law that exists, applies as it is. The discourse of accepting or rejecting can only happen when you have someone in the position who can change it.
"Leadership cannot emerge from an organisation of DUMB & Ignorant ones.. leadership emerges from a strong society..If you really want a strong leadership, why NOT rely on the former kshatriyas? why ONLY hindutva ?"
The very articulation of Hindutva is the backdrop of elimination of leadership of this society, isn't it? The brahma-kshatra that kept generating the kshatriyas learned, rooted in tradition, committed to society, with art of governance and knowledge of law is invalidated, is that not the reason why this entire movement is trying to cater to the need in spite of not being trained? If knowledge is lacking, if training is lacking, if leadership and governance art is lacking, that is precisely the problem that is being addressed. And that is not going to be filled in by magic with two or three generations of some movements. These movements only bring in the awareness about the needs of the hour. Replacement of centuries-long kshatra vocations is at least that long a process. Please match expectation with reality and then extrapolate things.
"This explains everything.. when ground level activists have little understanding, it shows the nature of the organisation in keeping its cadres ignorant.. "
That conclusion is wrong - the organizations simply lack the logistics to educate hundreds of thousands of cadre. Both for the crisis mode in which they are working and for the scarcity of time learned men can invest in the society - in or outside the organizations. Nevertheless, that is the need and that is the problem that if affecting organizations as well as society in general.
"Secondly, why are you expecting everyone to be slave to the ideology? This is the core problem that we have.."
Sorry, are you mentioning this word ideology so many times or me?
Besides, you need to differentiate between the institutions of nation and state (rashtra and rajya). Diversity, religions, social fabric etc are all part of nation. The leadership problem Hindutva is trying to grapple with is essentially a problem with the state, and the problem space there is not diversity or ground level freedom but commonality, convergence etc. Which is why I keep saying don't mix up things. This is NOT the domain of religion or jati.
Dwadasaksha
December 26, 2013
December 26, 2013
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@Dwadasaksha
I have been following your exchange with Senthil. There is a recent book by Dr. Kalyanraman, Director of the Sarasvati Research Centre, Chennai, called Rashtram (2011).
It is relevant to the many points you have raised : it dismisses the western ideas of 'nation' and focuses on "aham rashtri sangamanii. . . .Vagambrhini. . . . (Rig Veda, 10.125) and then goes into the historic kingdoms of the Rashtrakutas etc.
Translation : "I am the rashtra moving people together for abhyudayam " (welfare). This is the Goddess Sarasvati speaking about her role in society and rashtram.
The Hindu Rashtra, in my opinion, starts with that Vedic notion and expanded with Agama and the culture and social practices of the latter. Hence, properly speaking, we should be talking about Veda-Agama, except now it has been shortened to Hinduism.
Radhaji is right about this topic of Rashtra being a complex topic which needs to be debated and discussed and it is not possible to do so in short comments on a website.
In my opinion Senthil, intentionally or otherwise, is teaming up with the asuric forces that are trying to destroy Modi's rise to Prime Ministership.
It would be wiser if, instead of dabbling in his misreading of the political situation today in India he could focus on social issues such as environmental issues.
I should also mention that Professor Vaidyanathan of Bangalore has just published an excellent book on the Indian Economy. Title of the book : India Uninc. It focuses on the importance of small and medium industry in the economic activity of the country and rejects the total dependence on corporations.
I have been following your exchange with Senthil. There is a recent book by Dr. Kalyanraman, Director of the Sarasvati Research Centre, Chennai, called Rashtram (2011).
It is relevant to the many points you have raised : it dismisses the western ideas of 'nation' and focuses on "aham rashtri sangamanii. . . .Vagambrhini. . . . (Rig Veda, 10.125) and then goes into the historic kingdoms of the Rashtrakutas etc.
Translation : "I am the rashtra moving people together for abhyudayam " (welfare). This is the Goddess Sarasvati speaking about her role in society and rashtram.
The Hindu Rashtra, in my opinion, starts with that Vedic notion and expanded with Agama and the culture and social practices of the latter. Hence, properly speaking, we should be talking about Veda-Agama, except now it has been shortened to Hinduism.
Radhaji is right about this topic of Rashtra being a complex topic which needs to be debated and discussed and it is not possible to do so in short comments on a website.
In my opinion Senthil, intentionally or otherwise, is teaming up with the asuric forces that are trying to destroy Modi's rise to Prime Ministership.
It would be wiser if, instead of dabbling in his misreading of the political situation today in India he could focus on social issues such as environmental issues.
I should also mention that Professor Vaidyanathan of Bangalore has just published an excellent book on the Indian Economy. Title of the book : India Uninc. It focuses on the importance of small and medium industry in the economic activity of the country and rejects the total dependence on corporations.
Dr.Vijaya Rajiva
December 26, 2013
December 26, 2013
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@dwadasaksha,
/** Several. More than five decades ago I came across a better articulation of these concepts than I find today.
**/
Pls list down few and we will discuss case by case..
/** You didn't get my point - a law that exists, applies as it is. The discourse of accepting or rejecting can only happen when you have someone in the position who can change it.
**/
Are you so foolish to believe in such possibility? the law applies ONLY as long as you accept it.. the entire colonial machinery is controlled by the corporates and they choose who comes up the ladder and who NOT..
The real solution is to revive our traditional society, and build upon it.. Unfortunately NO hindutva people will accept this.. they want to be lambs meekly submitting to the colonial institutions, allowing traditional society to collapse in front of their own eyes..
Had RR worked to revive her Vaishnava Tradition, and the vaishnava communities (like nayakkars, vanniyars, iyengars, telugu arunthathiyars etc), she would have achieved a great success..
What outcome did she achieve by working for this Utopian hindu Identity? She was just sidelines by the mainstream hindutva folks, and become lone shouter among the crowd of ignorant lambs..
/** Several. More than five decades ago I came across a better articulation of these concepts than I find today.
**/
Pls list down few and we will discuss case by case..
/** You didn't get my point - a law that exists, applies as it is. The discourse of accepting or rejecting can only happen when you have someone in the position who can change it.
**/
Are you so foolish to believe in such possibility? the law applies ONLY as long as you accept it.. the entire colonial machinery is controlled by the corporates and they choose who comes up the ladder and who NOT..
The real solution is to revive our traditional society, and build upon it.. Unfortunately NO hindutva people will accept this.. they want to be lambs meekly submitting to the colonial institutions, allowing traditional society to collapse in front of their own eyes..
Had RR worked to revive her Vaishnava Tradition, and the vaishnava communities (like nayakkars, vanniyars, iyengars, telugu arunthathiyars etc), she would have achieved a great success..
What outcome did she achieve by working for this Utopian hindu Identity? She was just sidelines by the mainstream hindutva folks, and become lone shouter among the crowd of ignorant lambs..
senthil
December 26, 2013
December 26, 2013
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@dwadasaksha,
/** The very articulation of Hindutva is the backdrop of elimination of leadership of this society, isn't it? The brahma-kshatra that kept generating the kshatriyas learned, rooted in tradition, committed to society, with art of governance and knowledge of law is invalidated, is that not the reason why this entire movement is trying to cater to the need in spite of not being trained?
**/
No.. the kshatriyas were ONLY defeated and NOT completely eliminated.. we can understand this, if we look at our original history (NOT colonial history)..
the British East India Company was mere merchant company.. After anglo-maratha war, it got a foot hold, and started implementing the european systems (like european kind of metros, Masonic Judiciary, capitalistic economic model, Paper Currency etc), that are totally alien to us.. But they did not collapse the native social order..
While top level kings were defeated and eliminated, the lower level kshatriyas were intact.. for eg, the thakurs, yadavs, jats, reddys etc had the control over their village (or native districts ).. the traditional village panchayat was intact till 1960s.. (pls read dharampal's books at www.samanvaya.com/dharampal )
It is the so called Free India, that started destroying all remnants of the traditional bharath.. every kshatriya leadership at all levels were systematically removed and replaced with the colonial beurocracy..
While all these are taking place, the RSS Lambs were playing Kabadis in their Shakas, wielding their bamboo sticks.. and you want me to believe, that these folks will revive the glory of our bharath?
Go and ask any RSS shaka about hindu unity.. they will say, the hindu unity will be achieved, when all hindus comes to shaka and spends ONE hour daily towards the cause of bharatha matha.. and what are they going to do in that ONE hour? Raise saffron flag, Play Kabadi, sing some ridiculous desh bhakth songs and disperse to work as Corporate slaves..
Please understand that the Hindu Organisations are idiotic, impotent and deliberately Incapable..
Just like Gandhi game was played by the britishers to wean people from the real revolutionaries, the Hindu Organisations were propped up by the same Colonial Forces to DUPE the non-christian, non-islamic population of this nation..
It is a mental trap propped by the capitalistic forces that prevents us from focussing on the real issues like the exploitation of our land, destruction of our society ..
You can realise ONLY when you had come out of this psychological prison..
/** The very articulation of Hindutva is the backdrop of elimination of leadership of this society, isn't it? The brahma-kshatra that kept generating the kshatriyas learned, rooted in tradition, committed to society, with art of governance and knowledge of law is invalidated, is that not the reason why this entire movement is trying to cater to the need in spite of not being trained?
**/
No.. the kshatriyas were ONLY defeated and NOT completely eliminated.. we can understand this, if we look at our original history (NOT colonial history)..
the British East India Company was mere merchant company.. After anglo-maratha war, it got a foot hold, and started implementing the european systems (like european kind of metros, Masonic Judiciary, capitalistic economic model, Paper Currency etc), that are totally alien to us.. But they did not collapse the native social order..
While top level kings were defeated and eliminated, the lower level kshatriyas were intact.. for eg, the thakurs, yadavs, jats, reddys etc had the control over their village (or native districts ).. the traditional village panchayat was intact till 1960s.. (pls read dharampal's books at www.samanvaya.com/dharampal )
It is the so called Free India, that started destroying all remnants of the traditional bharath.. every kshatriya leadership at all levels were systematically removed and replaced with the colonial beurocracy..
While all these are taking place, the RSS Lambs were playing Kabadis in their Shakas, wielding their bamboo sticks.. and you want me to believe, that these folks will revive the glory of our bharath?
Go and ask any RSS shaka about hindu unity.. they will say, the hindu unity will be achieved, when all hindus comes to shaka and spends ONE hour daily towards the cause of bharatha matha.. and what are they going to do in that ONE hour? Raise saffron flag, Play Kabadi, sing some ridiculous desh bhakth songs and disperse to work as Corporate slaves..
Please understand that the Hindu Organisations are idiotic, impotent and deliberately Incapable..
Just like Gandhi game was played by the britishers to wean people from the real revolutionaries, the Hindu Organisations were propped up by the same Colonial Forces to DUPE the non-christian, non-islamic population of this nation..
It is a mental trap propped by the capitalistic forces that prevents us from focussing on the real issues like the exploitation of our land, destruction of our society ..
You can realise ONLY when you had come out of this psychological prison..
senthil
December 26, 2013
December 26, 2013
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@dwadasakhsa,
/** is that not the reason why this entire movement is trying to cater to the need in spite of not being trained? If knowledge is lacking, if training is lacking, if leadership and governance art is lacking, that is precisely the problem that is being addressed.
**/
Please tell me, where are these issues addressed by the Hindutva organisations or Hindu Organisations? What kind of capabilities had they developed in all these years? What kind of leadership and at what levels? What kind of governance model had they developed?
/**
And that is not going to be filled in by magic with two or three generations of some movements. These movements only bring in the awareness about the needs of the hour.
**/
Typical RSS answer.. how many generations you want to fill? and what level has been filled in these three generations?
/**
Replacement of centuries-long kshatra vocations is at least that long a process. Please match expectation with reality and then extrapolate things.
**/
Why do you want to replace the kshatriyas and the kshatriya vocations? and replace with whom? (this bamboo wielding kabaddi shaka players??)
this is exactly the problem i am pointing out.. the entire Hindu Intellectuals and Hindutva organisations had been convinced that all the kshatriyas had been lost and everything has to be replaced with new Hindutva models..
They never realised or cared, that all the kshatriya communities are still alive through out india..
/** That conclusion is wrong - the organizations simply lack the logistics to educate hundreds of thousands of cadre.
**/
When this organisation lacks the logistics to even educated its cadres, how can it save our "Hindu Society" from the invading forces?
You are living in an illusional hope.. i repeat, the hindutva organisations can NEVER save our society as you are hoping.. had they saved the kashmir pandits?
/** is that not the reason why this entire movement is trying to cater to the need in spite of not being trained? If knowledge is lacking, if training is lacking, if leadership and governance art is lacking, that is precisely the problem that is being addressed.
**/
Please tell me, where are these issues addressed by the Hindutva organisations or Hindu Organisations? What kind of capabilities had they developed in all these years? What kind of leadership and at what levels? What kind of governance model had they developed?
/**
And that is not going to be filled in by magic with two or three generations of some movements. These movements only bring in the awareness about the needs of the hour.
**/
Typical RSS answer.. how many generations you want to fill? and what level has been filled in these three generations?
/**
Replacement of centuries-long kshatra vocations is at least that long a process. Please match expectation with reality and then extrapolate things.
**/
Why do you want to replace the kshatriyas and the kshatriya vocations? and replace with whom? (this bamboo wielding kabaddi shaka players??)
this is exactly the problem i am pointing out.. the entire Hindu Intellectuals and Hindutva organisations had been convinced that all the kshatriyas had been lost and everything has to be replaced with new Hindutva models..
They never realised or cared, that all the kshatriya communities are still alive through out india..
/** That conclusion is wrong - the organizations simply lack the logistics to educate hundreds of thousands of cadre.
**/
When this organisation lacks the logistics to even educated its cadres, how can it save our "Hindu Society" from the invading forces?
You are living in an illusional hope.. i repeat, the hindutva organisations can NEVER save our society as you are hoping.. had they saved the kashmir pandits?
senthil
December 26, 2013
December 26, 2013
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@Senthil,
I wish to make another attempt at cutting your cyclic argumentation while agreeing with Dr. Vijaya ji's word that website commenting is not very conducive for debating such topics at length.
"Had RR worked to revive her Vaishnava Tradition...What outcome did she achieve by working for this Utopian hindu Identity?"
1. I have repeated 'n' number of times that they are two entirely different planes of activity. Neither do you stop mixing up nor do you stop pitting exclusive things against each other in your monolithic "the real solution" argument.
2. You can only make an honest evaluation of Hindutva if you evaluate ITS goals against ITS activity, and not when you try to evaluate it with respect to what you think its goals should be. So far I do not see you doing that. Your critique at best can be called a strawman argument.
3. Your locus standi of argumentation is severely, severely flawed. Evaluation of movements cannot be done for what they can achieve ideally but what they did given their limitations in the prevalent condition.
I wish to make another attempt at cutting your cyclic argumentation while agreeing with Dr. Vijaya ji's word that website commenting is not very conducive for debating such topics at length.
"Had RR worked to revive her Vaishnava Tradition...What outcome did she achieve by working for this Utopian hindu Identity?"
1. I have repeated 'n' number of times that they are two entirely different planes of activity. Neither do you stop mixing up nor do you stop pitting exclusive things against each other in your monolithic "the real solution" argument.
2. You can only make an honest evaluation of Hindutva if you evaluate ITS goals against ITS activity, and not when you try to evaluate it with respect to what you think its goals should be. So far I do not see you doing that. Your critique at best can be called a strawman argument.
3. Your locus standi of argumentation is severely, severely flawed. Evaluation of movements cannot be done for what they can achieve ideally but what they did given their limitations in the prevalent condition.
Dwadasaksha
December 26, 2013
December 26, 2013
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Dr. Vijaya ji,
Agreed, this mode is not appropriate for such argumentation. Unfortunately there is no good purvapaksha format website or forum that I came across, which can create good churn of argumentation on such topics.
Sri Kalyanaraman's articulation was one of the starting points that set me out in this topic. While historic evolution of rashtra-desa-varsha-rajya-kuta worked well over time, I believe nation-state is a not-yet-countered menace which puts unbridled authority in the hands of state to destroy institutions of rashtra. On the other hand its military unification is giving a perceived synonymy for these divergent concepts. Which is why the articulation of the likes of Savarkar and Abhas Chatterjee, Dr K's proposition on constitution for rashtra become important.
Agreed, this mode is not appropriate for such argumentation. Unfortunately there is no good purvapaksha format website or forum that I came across, which can create good churn of argumentation on such topics.
Sri Kalyanaraman's articulation was one of the starting points that set me out in this topic. While historic evolution of rashtra-desa-varsha-rajya-kuta worked well over time, I believe nation-state is a not-yet-countered menace which puts unbridled authority in the hands of state to destroy institutions of rashtra. On the other hand its military unification is giving a perceived synonymy for these divergent concepts. Which is why the articulation of the likes of Savarkar and Abhas Chatterjee, Dr K's proposition on constitution for rashtra become important.
Dwadasaksha
December 27, 2013
December 27, 2013
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@dwdasaksha,
/** 1. I have repeated 'n' number of times that they are two entirely different planes of activity. Neither do you stop mixing up nor do you stop pitting exclusive things against each other in your monolithic "the real solution" argument.
**/
that's what i am saying.. the Hindutva is NOT about protecting our traditions or cultures or society.. It exists in an entirely different plane, far separated from the common people's thought process..
/** You can only make an honest evaluation of Hindutva if you evaluate ITS goals against ITS activity, and not when you try to evaluate it with respect to what you think its goals should be
**/
This is a stupid statement.. any organisation is to be evaluated in terms of "What needs to be Done" and NOT on what it wants to do..
You claimed that Hindutva Movement is about protecting our cultures & tradition.. I pointed you how our traditional society & institutions are collapsing, and how hindutva never cared about them..
YOu did not answer for that..
You did not answer why Hindutva is NOT able to save kashmir.. but you claim, it will save the whole of bharat.. and then you are saying "Its limitation has to be considered"..
Look at your own contradiction..
/** Evaluation of movements cannot be done for what they can achieve ideally but what they did given their limitations in the prevalent condition.
**/
I am NOT seeing any evaluation from you.. ONLY blind defense of an ideology, and EMPTY promises..
If the Hindutva has restrictions, you need to list down their limitations in public and accept it.. but what you are claiming here is that Hindutva will do everything and save the whole masses..
/** 1. I have repeated 'n' number of times that they are two entirely different planes of activity. Neither do you stop mixing up nor do you stop pitting exclusive things against each other in your monolithic "the real solution" argument.
**/
that's what i am saying.. the Hindutva is NOT about protecting our traditions or cultures or society.. It exists in an entirely different plane, far separated from the common people's thought process..
/** You can only make an honest evaluation of Hindutva if you evaluate ITS goals against ITS activity, and not when you try to evaluate it with respect to what you think its goals should be
**/
This is a stupid statement.. any organisation is to be evaluated in terms of "What needs to be Done" and NOT on what it wants to do..
You claimed that Hindutva Movement is about protecting our cultures & tradition.. I pointed you how our traditional society & institutions are collapsing, and how hindutva never cared about them..
YOu did not answer for that..
You did not answer why Hindutva is NOT able to save kashmir.. but you claim, it will save the whole of bharat.. and then you are saying "Its limitation has to be considered"..
Look at your own contradiction..
/** Evaluation of movements cannot be done for what they can achieve ideally but what they did given their limitations in the prevalent condition.
**/
I am NOT seeing any evaluation from you.. ONLY blind defense of an ideology, and EMPTY promises..
If the Hindutva has restrictions, you need to list down their limitations in public and accept it.. but what you are claiming here is that Hindutva will do everything and save the whole masses..
senthil
December 27, 2013
December 27, 2013
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@vijayarajiva,
/** In my opinion Senthil, intentionally or otherwise, is teaming up with the asuric forces that are trying to destroy Modi's rise to Prime Ministership.
**/
It is the Urban Indians and its Colonial Institutions that are the real ASURIC Force.. dharma exists ONLY in traditional society.. NOT in the economic brothels of Metros..
You are proving to be a blind Vedic Fundamentalists like a christian BIBLIC fundamentalist..
/** In my opinion Senthil, intentionally or otherwise, is teaming up with the asuric forces that are trying to destroy Modi's rise to Prime Ministership.
**/
It is the Urban Indians and its Colonial Institutions that are the real ASURIC Force.. dharma exists ONLY in traditional society.. NOT in the economic brothels of Metros..
You are proving to be a blind Vedic Fundamentalists like a christian BIBLIC fundamentalist..
senthil
December 27, 2013
December 27, 2013
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@Senthil,
" the Hindutva is NOT about protecting our traditions or cultures or society.. It exists in an entirely different plane"
This shows how completely ignorant you are about the various levels of work required.
" any organisation is to be evaluated in terms of "What needs to be Done" and NOT on what it wants to do.."
There is no 'what needs to be done' in a monolithic way, dear ignorant friend. The need is there in several spheres, and each movement caters to one of those. Hence, what you think 'needs to be done' is only your perception of it and never the whole picture.
"You claimed that Hindutva Movement is about protecting our cultures & tradition"
No. Don't try to put words in my mouth or oversimplify things. Neither did I say that the movement "is about protecting traditions", nor did I do the mixup you are doing. So understand that this is a strawman argument.
"You did not answer why Hindutva is NOT able to save kashmir"
This is another strawman.
"I am NOT seeing any evaluation from you.. ONLY blind defense of an ideology, and EMPTY promises"
Another strawman - as if I am making promises to you on behalf of an organization. On the contrary, I tried explaining to you where your understanding is wrong and how to understand the movement in right perspective. If you do not intend to, I cannot help.
"what you are claiming here is that Hindutva will do everything and save the whole masses"
Another strawman - quote me where I said that. You try to put words in my mouth and try to refute what you claim I said. This is no honest way of arguing, sir.
" the Hindutva is NOT about protecting our traditions or cultures or society.. It exists in an entirely different plane"
This shows how completely ignorant you are about the various levels of work required.
" any organisation is to be evaluated in terms of "What needs to be Done" and NOT on what it wants to do.."
There is no 'what needs to be done' in a monolithic way, dear ignorant friend. The need is there in several spheres, and each movement caters to one of those. Hence, what you think 'needs to be done' is only your perception of it and never the whole picture.
"You claimed that Hindutva Movement is about protecting our cultures & tradition"
No. Don't try to put words in my mouth or oversimplify things. Neither did I say that the movement "is about protecting traditions", nor did I do the mixup you are doing. So understand that this is a strawman argument.
"You did not answer why Hindutva is NOT able to save kashmir"
This is another strawman.
"I am NOT seeing any evaluation from you.. ONLY blind defense of an ideology, and EMPTY promises"
Another strawman - as if I am making promises to you on behalf of an organization. On the contrary, I tried explaining to you where your understanding is wrong and how to understand the movement in right perspective. If you do not intend to, I cannot help.
"what you are claiming here is that Hindutva will do everything and save the whole masses"
Another strawman - quote me where I said that. You try to put words in my mouth and try to refute what you claim I said. This is no honest way of arguing, sir.
Dwadasaksha
December 27, 2013
December 27, 2013
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@dwadasaksha,
/** Another strawman - as if I am making promises to you on behalf of an organization. On the contrary, I tried explaining to you where your understanding is wrong and how to understand the movement in right perspective. If you do not intend to, I cannot help
**/
Are you saying that the "Hindutva" ideology & organisation are all perfect ones, and it is my understanding which is wrong?
If you say yes, then its a typical RSS reply.. NOTHING more to argue..
IF NO, then you have to accept that the Hindutva movement has failed in many fronts, and that needs a scrutiny and introspection..
/** Another strawman - as if I am making promises to you on behalf of an organization. On the contrary, I tried explaining to you where your understanding is wrong and how to understand the movement in right perspective. If you do not intend to, I cannot help
**/
Are you saying that the "Hindutva" ideology & organisation are all perfect ones, and it is my understanding which is wrong?
If you say yes, then its a typical RSS reply.. NOTHING more to argue..
IF NO, then you have to accept that the Hindutva movement has failed in many fronts, and that needs a scrutiny and introspection..
senthil
December 27, 2013
December 27, 2013
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@dwadasaksha,
/** No. Don't try to put words in my mouth or oversimplify things. Neither did I say that the movement "is about protecting traditions", nor did I do the mixup you are doing. So understand that this is a strawman argument.
**/
So atleast you have accepted that Hindutva is NOT about protecting the traditions.. and that is one of the reason why Hindutva people never care about destruction of traditional india..
/** No. Don't try to put words in my mouth or oversimplify things. Neither did I say that the movement "is about protecting traditions", nor did I do the mixup you are doing. So understand that this is a strawman argument.
**/
So atleast you have accepted that Hindutva is NOT about protecting the traditions.. and that is one of the reason why Hindutva people never care about destruction of traditional india..
senthil
December 27, 2013
December 27, 2013
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Senthilji this series is not about Hindutva, however you may understand the concept. This series is about anti-Hindu polity which has exposed itself as anti-RSS anti-Modi brcausr all political entities which want to do minority politics cannot afford to be explicitly antiHindu. I am showing that this is only a contin uity of those years when the Congress was anti-Tilak and Aurobindo. This is our iummediate past history. You refise ressolutely to look at whyy we are what we are and my reasoning. You are derailing a very important discussion by re-directing all exchanges into your direction. Pl stop this at once. Quite simply put, your diatribe is closing our minds to your own very good insights into our society.
Radha Rajan
December 27, 2013
December 27, 2013
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Dwadasaksha & Radha Rajan
Yes, you are right about the need for a continued articulation of what constitutes rashtra. The task has only just begun.
Radhajis is right about Senthil constantly redirecting the topic to his own misguided (in my opinion) views rather than systematically discussing the topic of why we are in the state we are in.
Part of the problem with Senthil's approach is that he has already broken the unity of Veda- Agama. Hence his mistaken identification of Vedic with Biblical thinking.
Secondly, at a political level, he fails to see that attacking Modi and RSS is the same as what the attacks and subsequent defeat against Aurobindo, Savarkar et al resulted in.
The RSS and the Sangh Parivar have done and continue to do sterling work both in the political and social fields. It is upto Hindu intellectuals to deepen that process in the ideological field.
Here again, that task has only just begun. People like Radhaji and yourself (Dwadasaksha) must continue to provide that leadership.
And among the first things that needs to be done after Modi is elected, is to begin the discourse on a uniform civil code. This is going to be difficult because the interface between rashtra and the need for a uniform civil code has yet to be articulated in a consistent manner.
Dr. Shrinivas Tilak's book Reawakening to a secular Hindu Rashtra (2008) is one of the books that begin that discourse.
Yes, you are right about the need for a continued articulation of what constitutes rashtra. The task has only just begun.
Radhajis is right about Senthil constantly redirecting the topic to his own misguided (in my opinion) views rather than systematically discussing the topic of why we are in the state we are in.
Part of the problem with Senthil's approach is that he has already broken the unity of Veda- Agama. Hence his mistaken identification of Vedic with Biblical thinking.
Secondly, at a political level, he fails to see that attacking Modi and RSS is the same as what the attacks and subsequent defeat against Aurobindo, Savarkar et al resulted in.
The RSS and the Sangh Parivar have done and continue to do sterling work both in the political and social fields. It is upto Hindu intellectuals to deepen that process in the ideological field.
Here again, that task has only just begun. People like Radhaji and yourself (Dwadasaksha) must continue to provide that leadership.
And among the first things that needs to be done after Modi is elected, is to begin the discourse on a uniform civil code. This is going to be difficult because the interface between rashtra and the need for a uniform civil code has yet to be articulated in a consistent manner.
Dr. Shrinivas Tilak's book Reawakening to a secular Hindu Rashtra (2008) is one of the books that begin that discourse.
Dr.Vijaya Rajiva
December 27, 2013
December 27, 2013
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What is secular Hindu rashtra? A six-sided pentagon?
Radha Rajan
December 27, 2013
December 27, 2013
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@RR ji,
i started the debate with a request for a detailed articulation of how a modern Hindu nation you visualise to be.. later it deviated..
Pls see this latest article from Kalavai Venkat, another NRI hindu intellectual, explaining his version of "Strong India" (meaning Hindu Nation) by destroying villages for development ..
http://centreright.in/2013/12/aaps-gram-sabha
another example of how the term "Hindu" is defined as per everyone's convenience.. this is the core issue i am raising here (and termed as diatribe by you & others) ..
will stop my arguments henceforth..
i started the debate with a request for a detailed articulation of how a modern Hindu nation you visualise to be.. later it deviated..
Pls see this latest article from Kalavai Venkat, another NRI hindu intellectual, explaining his version of "Strong India" (meaning Hindu Nation) by destroying villages for development ..
http://centreright.in/2013/12/aaps-gram-sabha
another example of how the term "Hindu" is defined as per everyone's convenience.. this is the core issue i am raising here (and termed as diatribe by you & others) ..
will stop my arguments henceforth..
senthil
December 27, 2013
December 27, 2013
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